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Thread started 03/05/20 4:41pm

nonesuch

1999 original version including the latin-section

Have any of you good people ever actually heard the infamous orginal unedited version of 1999 featuring the latin-section that had been mentioned by quite a few people? Did the Vaultmeister ever explained why it wasn't included in the 1999 Deluxe Set? Or was it?

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Reply #1 posted 03/05/20 4:51pm

Mikado

I haven't but I can't imagine it would be very good. Sometimes less is more.

A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #2 posted 03/05/20 7:08pm

jjam

It will be released on the Super Duper Deluxe 20CD/5DVD set in 2029.

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Reply #3 posted 03/05/20 9:30pm

rdhull

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Mikado said:

I haven't but I can't imagine it would be very good. Sometimes less is more.

Are you kidding me?

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #4 posted 03/05/20 9:44pm

LoveGalore

Mikado said:

I haven't but I can't imagine it would be very good. Sometimes less is more.



Morris Hayes says the Latin section in the new master is the same as/based on/whatever the original, so I reckon you could get an idea if you'd like it from that.

It'd be cool to hear but also probably is pretty weird.
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Reply #5 posted 03/06/20 3:18am

nonesuch

LoveGalore said:

Mikado said:

I haven't but I can't imagine it would be very good. Sometimes less is more.

Morris Hayes says the Latin section in the new master is the same as/based on/whatever the original, so I reckon you could get an idea if you'd like it from that. It'd be cool to hear but also probably is pretty weird.

Thank you for the information. I didn't know about Morris's statement.

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Reply #6 posted 03/06/20 4:25am

jaawwnn

avatar

rdhull said:

Mikado said:

I haven't but I can't imagine it would be very good. Sometimes less is more.

Are you kidding me?

The latin section is a terrible idea and you know it.

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Reply #7 posted 03/06/20 4:50am

imprimis

My view is that it most likely does not exist, and was a mocking statement to save face with that dreadful release ('The New Master') that has now become part of the lore.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 4:50am]

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Reply #8 posted 03/06/20 5:23am

jaawwnn

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imprimis said:

My view is that it most likely does not exist, and was a mocking statement to save face with that dreadful release ('The New Master') that has now become part of the lore.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 4:50am]

It's a minor, fan obsession level detail, but it has occured to me that the story of the original having the latin section conflicts with the other story of Prince jamming with Sheila E. for the first time circa 1983 (I think?) and really enjoying it because he hadn't played latin music before.

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Reply #9 posted 03/06/20 6:01am

LoveGalore

imprimis said:

My view is that it most likely does not exist, and was a mocking statement to save face with that dreadful release ('The New Master') that has now become part of the lore.


.

[Edited 3/6/20 4:50am]



Certainly possible. But I was pretty surprised by the genres represented on 1999 SDE. I expected more songs in the same vein as the album tracks and Possessed, Extraloveable, and Lust U Always. IMO, we got something entirely different and it lends at least a little credence to the idea there may be at least a little something to this concept.
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Reply #10 posted 03/06/20 6:03am

LoveGalore

jaawwnn said:



imprimis said:


My view is that it most likely does not exist, and was a mocking statement to save face with that dreadful release ('The New Master') that has now become part of the lore.


.


[Edited 3/6/20 4:50am]



It's a minor, fan obsession level detail, but it has occured to me that the story of the original having the latin section conflicts with the other story of Prince jamming with Sheila E. for the first time circa 1983 (I think?) and really enjoying it because he hadn't played latin music before.



They met in 1978 for the first time (according to her latest recollection) so I gather it's possible they played together at some point prior to 1999 being demoed.
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Reply #11 posted 03/06/20 7:13am

dodger

nonesuch said:

Have any of you good people ever actually heard the infamous orginal unedited version of 1999 featuring the latin-section that had been mentioned by quite a few people? Did the Vaultmeister ever explained why it wasn't included in the 1999 Deluxe Set? Or was it?

Was he in American Pie

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Reply #12 posted 03/06/20 8:53am

Militant

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moderator

imprimis said:

My view is that it most likely does not exist, and was a mocking statement to save face with that dreadful release ('The New Master') that has now become part of the lore.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 4:50am]

It does exist- HM Buff confirmed it.


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Reply #13 posted 03/06/20 9:32am

imprimis

Perhaps, but one shouldn't be so pursuaded. These are some rather peripheral sources to rely on so heavily. I think an ill-conceived effort to cash in a little bit on the 1998/1999 "Latin" pop phenomenon might slightly better explain its presence on "The New Master". There has been a long-standing desire of fans to identify P more concretely with the Latinx community, that I believe drives this likely myth about the song '1999'.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 9:43am]

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Reply #14 posted 03/06/20 9:59am

LoveGalore

imprimis said:

Perhaps, but one shouldn't be so pursuaded. These are some rather peripheral sources to rely on so heavily. I think an ill-conceived effort to cash in a little bit on the 1998/1999 "Latin" pop phenomenon might slightly better explain its presence on "The New Master". There has been a long-standing desire of fans to identify P more concretely with the Latinx community, that I believe drives this likely myth about the song '1999'.


.

[Edited 3/6/20 9:43am]



Why would Hans-Martin Buff, a non Latino, care to dream up that myth over a decade after he no longer worked with Prince though?
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Reply #15 posted 03/06/20 10:12am

imprimis

This claim has existed long before any particular (more recent) interview that you are citing. It's been circulating since approximately shortly after the EP was released. I cannot say whether it originated with him. Mr Martin-Buff has latched onto a fanciful story that concerns one of the limited number of projects he was able to work on, or be generally present around in the Park during his tenure (one that began very promisingly with Emancipation, but soon unfolded into a fairly troubled, and uneven period, if not an outright all-time career lowpoint). He might have an incentive to explain away in a more heartfelt, and 'authentic'-seeming manner, cheesy dreck that he helped engineer, or at least to come off as an entertaining interviewee.

.

I recommend that the claim be shelved on the clearance rack alongside Susannah's 'Starfish and Coffee' mail-order mugs. There needs to be a Snopes.com-like mechanism for the Prince world.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 10:47am]

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Reply #16 posted 03/06/20 10:47am

LoveGalore

imprimis said:

This claim has existed long before any particular (more recent) interview that you are citing. It's been circulating since approximately shortly after the EP was released. I cannot say whether it originated with him. Mr Martin-Buff has latched onto a fanciful story that concerns one of the limited number of projects he was able to work on, or be generally present around in the Park during his tenure (one that began very promisingly with Emancipation, but soon unfolded into a fairly troubled, and uneven period, if not an outright all-time career lowpoint). He might have an incentive to explain away in a more heartfelt, and 'authentic'-seeming manner, cheesy dreck that he helped engineer, or at least to come off as an entertaining interviewee.


.


I recommend that the claim be shelved on the clearance rack alongside Susannah's 'Starfish and Coffee' mail-order mugs.


.

[Edited 3/6/20 10:44am]



And perhaps that so-called Dream Factory album art? biggrin
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Reply #17 posted 03/06/20 11:16am

jaawwnn

avatar

imprimis said:

This claim has existed long before any particular (more recent) interview that you are citing. It's been circulating since approximately shortly after the EP was released. I cannot say whether it originated with him. Mr Martin-Buff has latched onto a fanciful story that concerns one of the limited number of projects he was able to work on, or be generally present around in the Park during his tenure (one that began very promisingly with Emancipation, but soon unfolded into a fairly troubled, and uneven period, if not an outright all-time career lowpoint). He might have an incentive to explain away in a more heartfelt, and 'authentic'-seeming manner, cheesy dreck that he helped engineer, or at least to come off as an entertaining interviewee.

.

I recommend that the claim be shelved on the clearance rack alongside Susannah's 'Starfish and Coffee' mail-order mugs. There needs to be a Snopes.com-like mechanism for the Prince world.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 10:47am]

He says he literally went to the original multitracks themselves and that that section was on it. Just call him a liar already and we can have it out lol

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Reply #18 posted 03/06/20 11:19am

nonesuch

Militant said:

imprimis said:

My view is that it most likely does not exist, and was a mocking statement to save face with that dreadful release ('The New Master') that has now become part of the lore.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 4:50am]

It does exist- HM Buff confirmed it.


I actually got the information from your HMB-interview. Thank you for your enedeavours to „Uncover Prince“. It takes a lot of enthusiasm for the man and his music to get to the group of people you deservedly stay in touch with. Keep the good spirit!

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Reply #19 posted 03/06/20 11:24am

databank

avatar

imprimis said:

This claim has existed long before any particular (more recent) interview that you are citing. It's been circulating since approximately shortly after the EP was released. I cannot say whether it originated with him. Mr Martin-Buff has latched onto a fanciful story that concerns one of the limited number of projects he was able to work on, or be generally present around in the Park during his tenure (one that began very promisingly with Emancipation, but soon unfolded into a fairly troubled, and uneven period, if not an outright all-time career lowpoint). He might have an incentive to explain away in a more heartfelt, and 'authentic'-seeming manner, cheesy dreck that he helped engineer, or at least to come off as an entertaining interviewee.

.

I recommend that the claim be shelved on the clearance rack alongside Susannah's 'Starfish and Coffee' mail-order mugs. There needs to be a Snopes.com-like mechanism for the Prince world.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 10:47am]

As often, and with all due respect, your lead argument is "because it appears more logical to me than what research has established", and this is actually not an argument at all.

.

Fact checking, since you invoke Snopes, works with finding contradictory statements or evidence not following one's own intuitions and putting them on an equal level with known statements and evidence.

.

I was not aware of this rumor/fact before HM Buff said it in Militant's interview, but I would find it extremely interesting to know where if first surfaced, if anyone can recall.

.

I wasn't aware either of Morris Hayes making a similar statement but if he did, it corroborates HM Buff's statement and makes it all the more believable. If he did not, the only piece of evidence we have remains HM Buff's statement.

.

Regardless, I have no reason to doubt Mr. Buff's (or Mr. Hayes') claims, and the only thing that could make me question his/their statement/s would be a contradictory statement from someone who has equal knowledge (an engineer or bandmember who either engineered, attended or heard the original recording, or someone who currently curates the vault).

.
Certainly, Duane has or will interview Peggy McCreary and Don Batts about this, and when/if he publishes his book about the 1981-1982 sessions, more will be known. Maybe he will even come here and tell us what he knows, as he's occasionally been nice enough to share unpublished information in Org threads.

.

So maybe such a contradictory statement will come, but until it does the subject of whether such a version exists should be considered closed.

.

Of course, nothing stops you from investigating the subject and contact Duane, Peggy, Don, Lisa, Dez, Jill or Jesse and ask them. This would be useful fact-checking and if you feel like giving it a shot, be my guest, but as the person making the extraordinary claim, you're the one who must provide extraordinary evidence.

.

On a sidenote, I also expected this version to be on 1999 Deluxe and was disappointed by its omission. On the other hand, 2 CD's could not possibly contain each and every version of each and every track recorded during that period, si choices had to be made.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #20 posted 03/06/20 11:26am

imprimis

I'll stop short of calling him a liar, but I will say that his recent interview veers conveniently and suspiciously into subject matter regarding that very part. https://www.youtube.com/w...9_swSFLF8s seems almost shruggingly apologetic.

.

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Reply #21 posted 03/06/20 11:26am

nonesuch

LoveGalore said:

jaawwnn said:

It's a minor, fan obsession level detail, but it has occured to me that the story of the original having the latin section conflicts with the other story of Prince jamming with Sheila E. for the first time circa 1983 (I think?) and really enjoying it because he hadn't played latin music before.

They met in 1978 for the first time (according to her latest recollection) so I gather it's possible they played together at some point prior to 1999 being demoed.

I'm kinda baffled that "latin" must necessarily equal Sheila E. Prince could have invited hundreds of percussion players into the studio for that infamous latin-intersection during the 1999 sessions.

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Reply #22 posted 03/06/20 11:32am

imprimis

There's nothing to state what this 'Latin part', if it properly exists, contains (or that it is any good, for that matter). It could be a synth marimba, Cubop piano, and more LM-1 programming; P playing around with a rented percussion set (loosely similar to his flirtations with the sax, for which he took actual lessons); or a competent but random studio sessionist (but at Kiowa Trail?).

.

That it entails the direct involvement of Sheila E, a notion which seems also to motivate interest in this topic, is hopeful speculation.

.

Disbelief isn't coequal with asserting an 'extraordinary' claim; embellishment is a not uncommon occurence among the less consequential members of his entourage.

.

The statements and utterances of those who worked in some (usually brief-lived or minor, and sometimes spurned) capacity with a celebrity should not be granted the unconditional full weight of "evidence"; credibility findings are a part of any resolution to a controversy, and something on which reasonable minds may at times differ.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 12:16pm]

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Reply #23 posted 03/06/20 11:40am

nonesuch

imprimis said:

There's nothing to state what this 'Latin part', if it properly exists, contains. It could be a synth marimba, Cubop piano, and more LM-1 programming. Disbelief isn't coequal with asserting an 'extraordinary' claim; embellishment is a not uncommon occurence among the less consequential members of the entourage.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 11:39am]

Very well said.

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Reply #24 posted 03/06/20 12:34pm

databank

avatar

imprimis said:

There's nothing to state what this 'Latin part', if it properly exists, contains. It could be a synth marimba, Cubop piano, and more LM-1 programming, P playing around with a rented percussion set (loosely similar to his flirtations with the sax, for which he took actual lessons), or a competent but random studio sessionist (but at Kiowa?).

.

That it entails the direct involvement of Sheila E, a notion which seems also to motivate interest in this topic, is hopeful speculation.

.

Disbelief isn't coequal with asserting an 'extraordinary' claim; embellishment is a not uncommon occurence among the less consequential members of his entourage.

.

The statements and utterances of those who worked in some (usually minor) capacity with a celebrity should not be granted the unconditional full weight of "evidence"; credibility findings are a part of any resolution to a controversy, and something on which reasonable minds may at times differ.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 12:06pm]

OK for "disbelief", yet you have no further argument to provide save that "it sounds fishy to you".

.

In lack of material evidence, the statements of the people who were around at the time it was recorded, or had the opportunity to hear the multitrack, is the only thing we can work with. You don't read Duane writing "Susan Rogers said this but it sounds fishy to me" in his book, unless he has some contradictory statement, or a conflicing piece of evidence such as a Sunset Sound recording log, and thanks God because if he did such things, his work would lose all its value lol

.

So of course you are free to express your disbelief, but I must nonetheless question the point of doing it since it doesn't and cannot provide any fuirther knowledge on the topic.

.

Of course, I also agree with you to say that any involvement by Sheila on such a recording is utter speculation, and it has no more value to me that your unexplainable suspiscion towards Mr. Buff.

.

For all I know you're the one with a hidden agenda, not HM Buff wink

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #25 posted 03/06/20 12:40pm

imprimis

I don't think HM Buff has a hidden agenda. Instead, I believe it a mostly flippant embellishment, one that revives an older claim, that occurs during the course of an interview (immediately after delivering the "disappointing" news that very little was done in the way of re-recordings, and having been prompted to TNM by the interviewer, who at the beginning appears focused on an era well before HMB's time, for a discussion expected to last well over an hour).

.

.

To me, it's kind of a Emmanuel Lewis' former manager says that 'Thriller' (in honor to Elizabeth Taylor) has an edited out Klezmer section thing.

.

.

My posting is a small (meaningless?) effort in disabusing the general readership of a forum such as this, of notions unlikely (limited probability, if you don't like my sweeping expression) to be real (in their entirety, at least). This is one that just so happens to have taken on a life of its own, and led to all variety of mythologizing about his legacy.

.

The reality is that Prince is not Latino; the possibility that he explored such themes in 1981/1982 isn't formally necessary to strengthen a historical record that already firmly bears out a long-standing, respectful fascination with and incorporation of Latin sounds into his projects and records; any omitted portion could do no further service in making this one of the most recognizable and culturally significant popular songs of its own age; and there is no additional layer of pulpy romantic intrigue with Sheila to be gleaned.

.

[Edited 3/6/20 13:38pm]

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Reply #26 posted 03/06/20 12:43pm

jaawwnn

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nonesuch said:

LoveGalore said:

jaawwnn said: They met in 1978 for the first time (according to her latest recollection) so I gather it's possible they played together at some point prior to 1999 being demoed.

I'm kinda baffled that "latin" must necessarily equal Sheila E. Prince could have invited hundreds of percussion players into the studio for that infamous latin-intersection during the 1999 sessions.

Well i'm the person who brought it up so i'll answer. I can't fully remember where I read about this jamming session (DMSR book? Lets go crazy book? Duane Tudahl book?) but it sticks in my mind because I remember being surprised at whoever it was saying that Prince had never played latin music before. Maybe they meant "with a professional," but I figured he must have played around with it himself at some point.

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Reply #27 posted 03/06/20 2:04pm

nonesuch

jaawwnn said:

nonesuch said:

I'm kinda baffled that "latin" must necessarily equal Sheila E. Prince could have invited hundreds of percussion players into the studio for that infamous latin-intersection during the 1999 sessions.

Well i'm the person who brought it up so i'll answer. I can't fully remember where I read about this jamming session (DMSR book? Lets go crazy book? Duane Tudahl book?) but it sticks in my mind because I remember being surprised at whoever it was saying that Prince had never played latin music before. Maybe they meant "with a professional," but I figured he must have played around with it himself at some point.

I guess no one will ever know for sure what Prince might have been playing or tried playing when he was all alone by himself. Also there's another big questionmark: what did Latin Music mean to him? Traditional grooves played by the Fania All Stars? The more poppy-Latin-stuff that Santana did?

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Reply #28 posted 03/06/20 6:45pm

rdhull

avatar

jaawwnn said:

rdhull said:

Are you kidding me?

The latin section is a terrible idea and you know it.

gtfoohwtbs dont tell me what you think I know

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #29 posted 03/06/20 10:21pm

LoveGalore

rdhull said:



jaawwnn said:




rdhull said:



Are you kidding me?



The latin section is a terrible idea and you know it.




gtfoohwtbs dont tell me what you think I know



[Snip - luv4u]
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